Does Daily Kos hate Israel? Does the American left-wing despise the Jewish state? I don't really know. This is, in part, because we constantly receive mixed signals. This diary, the same one that DKW referenced in his recent post, represents an excellent example of this.
It is titled The Rise and Irony of the Zionist Reich.
Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is just about the most offensive thing anyone can do viz-a-viz the Jewish people. Aside from being patently, and obviously, false, it is a way of using the most horrific experience of the Jews as a weapon against them. And, yet, there it sits on the largest liberal political blog in the United States, if not the world.
At first glance, it is easy to conclude that American liberals despise Israel and it is unquestionably the case that some do so. How much evidence needs to pile up before we can draw this conclusion? And it's not about criticism. It's about hatred. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany does not constitute "criticism." It constitutes hate. But, again, how much evidence do we need? As we've previously noted, AmbroseBurnside wrote a Daily Kos diary containing a poll asking, "Do you agree with Hugo Chavez that Israel is a genocidal, killer state?"
The final tally shows that 53 percent of Daily Kos members who responded do, in fact, agree with that assessment. Now, Ambrose is someone who has stirred the wrath of many within the Daily Kos I-P community and therefore many of us wondered if the polling results were as much to do with him as with the true sentiment of the poll responders. It was for this reason that Volleyboy wrote a diary asking the same question. Volleyboy is a well-liked and well-respected supporter of Israel on Daily Kos and, indeed, his poll received a different result, with only 34 percent of the respondents agreeing that Israel is a "genocidal, killer state."
Only 34 percent.
Merely a third.
How are we to assess this? The great majority of "Kossacks" do not participate in I-P diaries for a variety of reasons. Some, perhaps the majority, are simply not that interested in the topic... and why should they be? Others are turned off by the vitriol that is so often on display in those diaries. Yet it is obvious that among those who do care, that Israel hatred is prominent.
The Rise and Irony of the Zionist Reich also contained a poll asking "Do you see the parallels between The Israeli Government and Nazi Germany?" 46 percent responded in the affirmative. Almost half of Daily Kos respondents believe that the Jewish state is something akin to Nazi Germany. At the same time, it must be noted, the majority of commenters in that diary lambasted the diarist as an anti-Semite and the Daily Kos administration banned the diarist.
So, why the mixed message? How is it that so many of the commenters disagreed with the assessment of the diarist and, yet, almost half claim that they think what he said is true? What conclusions can we draw from this developing picture? It seems clear to me that, as the liberal-left thinks of itself as anti-racist, obvious expressions of anti-Semitism, such as comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, are not tolerated. Daily Kos, in fact, has a policy banning such expressions of hatred. At the same time, quite clearly, many Kossacks privately agree that the Jews of Israel have evolved into Nazis. They may not be willing to say so in the comments, but they obviously do not mind expressing that opinion in an anonymous poll.
We all understand, of course, that these are not scientific polls. They cannot be taken as definitive. Nonetheless, three polls over the course of a week have given results in which from one-third to one-half of the respondents expressed extremist loathing toward Israel. The next question to ask is, does this hatred toward Israel represent a hatred for Jews? Israel is, after all, the Jewish state. About 40 percent of the world's Jewish population lives there and about eighty percent of that country is Jewish. So, if one hates Israel is not one hating Jews? Many would say "no." They do not hate Jews, but hate Israel's policies toward the Palestinian people. The problem is, claiming that Israel is a "genocidal, killer state" or that it is something akin to Nazi Germany, does not represent criticism of Israeli state policy. Criticism of Israeli state policy, like criticism of any countries' policies, is welcome and needed.
But this is something else.
In a recent sociological study conducted by Yale’s Institute for Social and Policy Studies (pdf), professors Edward H. Kaplan and Charles A. Small concluded that degrees of hatred toward Israel closely coincide with degrees of anti-Semitism. Published in the Journal of Conflict Resolution, in August 2006, the article is titled, Anti-Israel Sentiment Predicts Anti-Semitism in Europe.
So? Is Daily Kos I-P crawling with anti-Jewish racists?
I do not know the answer. But as my dear 'ol ma used to say, "Something stinks to high heaven."
Posted by Karmafish
Tuesday, September 8, 2009
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I am pondering whether or not I want to post this on dKos. I hate the idea of involving myself any further in flame wars over there, but, at the same time...
ReplyDeleteYou also have to consider the focus on Israel while ignoring places like Sudan and North Korea and defending places like Iran.
ReplyDeleteRegards,
DKW
DKW, if I were to publish this on dKos, would you be opposed to me linking back to this place?
ReplyDeleteI understand that we do not wish to re-create dKos I-P on this site, but it might help traffic. btw, do you have the ability to ban here?
Great stuff AND as expected THIS emerges about Van Jones making another thread in the weave start revealing the whole tapestry.
ReplyDelete"I came to the holy land to get a view of the human rights situation.. I was totally unprepared.. THE WORST RACIAL PRACTICES OF THE LAST CENTURY ARE PRESENT HERE, IN SHOCKING COMBINATION.. Arab citizens under a pass situation like apartheid.. about the harassment of an Arab American in our group at the airport.. people in the US don't have a clear view of what is going on.. like 'settlements'.. 30,000 people in massive cities, with Burger Kings and malls, and defended with the whole might of the Israeli army.. wholesale demolition of Palestinian homes.. the US supporting the whole mess.. to see it.. to see what it means for Arab people is really really distressing.
I came over here very concerned about Israeli children living in fear.. nobody is winning here.. WHAT I'VE SEEN HERE GOES FAR BEYOND WHAT COULD BE CONSIDERED FOR SAFETY.. ABSOLUTE HOUSE ARREST FOR EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN A CITY.. 24/7 FOR WEEKS AT A TIME.. NONE OF THIS COULD RATIONALLY BE CONCEIVED OF AS DEFENSE.. I HAVE BEEN A LIFELONG OPPONENT OF ANTI-SEMITISM.. NOW NOT TO SPEAK OUT HERE IS ANTI-SEMITIC.. WE OWE IT TO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL.. AND PALESTINE.. TO PUT AN END TO THESE KIND OF ABUSES.. THERE IS NO DIVISION BETWEEN US POLICY TOWARD IRAQ AND TOWARD ISRAEL-PALESTINE.. THE US GOVERNMENT ON THE WRONG SIDE OF SANITY.. to push Iraq into a corner and threaten it with massive war. We need new leadership in Tel Aviv and Washington.. let's link all these situations together.. boldly speaking the truth.. I went to the funeral of a young Palestinian boy shot by Israeli soldier.. I saw his bloody body being placed into the ground.. since I've been here four children killed by soldiers.. not being reported by the media.. but being recorded in the hearts and minds of the mothers and fathers here."
No Objection
ReplyDeleteRegards,
DKW
Put it up, Karma. It's very interesting.
ReplyDeleteI got an amazing article on the "left" and Israel http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/01/why_does_the_left_hate_israel.html here. While generally I don't read American Thinker, I think this article hits the nail on the head.
ReplyDeleteKrissy,
ReplyDeleteI constantly doubt your Democratic credentials. This magazine seems like a right-wing mag. I have no desire to spread a right-wing meme. I only desire to make sure that mine is a Democratic Party I can support.
Regards,
DKW
DKW, I am a staunch Democrat, in the mold of Scoop Jackson, JFK, and Bill Clinton. And while I know the right likes to steal Scoop, he was actually a very liberal Democrat AT HOME, and a big supporter of civil rights. But I simply found the article, which while I don't 100% agree with, is right in more than a few respects. The article itself says "The left does not mean the Democratic Party in Congress." On the domestic issues, I'm as liberal as they come. You know, as do those familiar with my Dkos history, I've always been a dem. I was a staunch Clintonite in 2008. but the article, not the site itself but that singular article, makes some good points.
ReplyDeleteHatred is easy to recognize; it takes no rocket scientist. And you know we could go on and on giving those haters examples and explanations but it won't change a thing. Their hatred will remain as will their excuses and inability to admit the hate.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't always antisemitic but it aids it and it's a rather pathetic, immature emotion. In that regard we are simply dealing with people with unresolved emotional issues and I for one am not a therapist.
Most of the comments in that diary were very dismissive of the douchebag that posted the diary, and he did (and has) been troll-rated extensively. He's also been put on suspension for anti-semitism in the past, and I think he's one more diary or comment away from permanent banning.
ReplyDeleteDo I think that DK is anti-semitic, just because 40 or 50 people respond to a poll in a hateful manner? Not for a minute. I think the overwhelming majority of Dems supports Israel, and I would say also that the overwhelming majority of the tens of thousands of active participants at DK probably do as well. Remember, most people there don't participate in I/P, because they find it a hateful cesspool. Go into any I/P diary, and it's the same old crowd on both sides of the issue. I'd say there are probably 50 regulars in I/P. Fifty, out of 200,000+ registered users. So I really wouldn't let a diary from a known anti-semite who is this close to banning worry you, especially considering how he got his ass handed to him in the comments.
Now, what about the poll? Is it representative of DK as a whole? No, as I said. But it does illustrate something that I've noticed over the years, and that's the essential cowardice of the haters. They can express their hatred anonymously through these polls, and some will venture out into a carefully worded comment that is rife with weasel words and ambiguously-phrased statements. Fundamentally, however, they are cowards. Chickenshit little cowards.
You'll get crucified on DK if you write that, but I agree.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe they will have a valid argument but most of them (like most of ANY group) are just followers who have not even critically examined the issues...but that doesn't make all the anti-Israel types racist.
The problem here is not that dKos is anti-Semitic, or even that some within dKos I-P are anti-Semitic, but that those driving the conversation around I-P tend to be anti-Israel.
ReplyDeleteThat's the problem.
Because they are anti-Israel they tend to blame everything on the Jewish state and because they do so they absolutely refuse to acknowledge Israeli concessions towards peace.
For example, did American liberals applaud when Israel retreated from Gaza? Fuck no. But the truth is, there would be no blockade today if the Gazans had accepted the Israeli pull-out as an opportunity to create an economic infrastructure, rather than an opportunity to launch rocket attacks and elect Hamas.
Does Israel get any credit for Camp David in 2000? Ehud Barak offered Arafat something like 95% of the WB and a Palestinian capital in E. Jerusalem, but he walked from the table without making a counter-offer.
And, yet, it is always Israel that gets blamed for the failure of the peace process.
And Karma, I might add that this creates an atmosphere for antisemites to get a toehold; I've seen it on several blogs. It also adds to the hatred of Israel and enforces a norm that is very dangerous in a world outside dKos where Jews get attacked because of Israeli action.
ReplyDeleteKarma,
ReplyDeleteThe don't acknowledge what happened at Camp David. With the help of revisionists (who weren't there) like Jimmy Carter, the Palestinian propoganda has tried to rewrite what happened in 2000. I saw one poster actually say something like Clinton and Barak conspired to ruin the negotiations at Camp David.
The problem with Camp David for the Palestinian Cause is that the Palestinians were offered around 98% of the land they wanted and joint custody of Jerusalem and walked away from the deal to start the 2nd Intifada. The natural question asked by the Israelis was if they rejected this deal what possible deal they have no interest in a 2 state solution but remain committed to the destruction of Israel.
Regards,
DKW