Meteor Blades has requested of several I-P regulars, including myself, that we put forward what we think a reasonable peace might look like. His purpose is, I think, to demonstrate that most pro-Palestinian advocates have considerably more in common with most pro-Israel advocates on Daily Kos than one might think given the never-ending vitriol. I was foolish enough to agree to this request and below are a few of my thoughts on the matter. Pretty standard stuff, really. The two-state solution.
The West Bank:
Israel will remove itself from most of the West Bank in a one-to-one land-swap deal in which Jewish settlements near the Green Line will become incorporated into Israel. The so-called "security fence" shall be adjusted so that it is entirely on Israeli land. If, after a period of two to five years, Israel endures no terrorist activity out of that region, it will remove the fence entirely.
Jewish settlements within the newly created state of Palestine will remain intact, subject to Palestinian review and adjustments, and Palestine will consider its Jewish residents full citizens, with equal of rights under the law and full freedom of worship. Likewise, Israel shall remove any obstacles in law that prevents Arab-Israelis from enjoying full equality of citizenship, with the lone exception of "right of return." All Jewish-Palestinians will be afforded access to Israel, and all Palestinian-Israelis will be afforded access to Palestine, without undue restrictions, in perpetuity. Any Jewish-Palestinians who wish to migrate into Israel will be allowed to do so without restriction. Israel will provide initial housing for any such migrants from Palestine. The remaining Jewish settlements in Palestine will be opened to Arab residency without restriction.
A rail-line shall be constructed by the Palestinian and Israeli governments connecting Gaza to the West Bank. Israel will maintain the right to guard both sides of this line as a security measure.
The Golan Heights:
As a gesture of good-will, Israel shall return the Golan to Syria. Given Israel’s military superiority, it no longer needs the Golan to protect itself from potential hostilities.
East Jerusalem:
The state of Israel and the state of Palestine shall maintain joint sovereignty over East Jerusalem. This will allow Palestine to set up its capital in that city, if it chooses, while hindering neither Jewish, nor Muslim, religious practitioners from access to various "holy sites," such as the Western Wall for the Jews, and the Al-Aqsa Mosque for the Muslims. If such an arrangement proves unworkable, or if either side opposes such an arrangement, than the Arab majority sections of East Jerusalem shall be Palestinian while the Jewish majority sections shall remain Israeli. In that case, the UN will control the "holy sites" to ensure equal access to anyone who wishes to visit for any reason.
The Right of Return:
Israel shall grant limited "right of return" to any Palestinians who can demonstrate reasonable proof of residency on Israeli land prior to 1948. "Limited" shall be construed to mean that the Israeli government will reserve the right to decide just how many Palestinians will be afforded this privilege.
Security Measures:
United Nations forces will occupy a security zone bordering the two countries for a period of no less than ten years. After that period the UN, in consultation with the Israeli and Palestinian governments, will assess the necessity of maintaining its presence in order to preserve the peace.
Both governments will agree to prosecute and punish any individuals who plan, or commit, acts of violence against the citizenry of the other state, according to prosecutorial guidelines established by the UN in consultation with Israeli and Palestinian leadership.
For the first ten years of its existence Palestinian security will be provided by UN forces, both in the security zone, as well as within Palestine, proper. After that period, if Palestine has not shown itself aggressive toward the Jewish state, UN forces will commence a process of withdrawal and Palestine will be free to commence a UN guided process of militarization. After twenty years, if Palestine has still not shown aggression toward the Jewish state, it will be free to create its military free of restrictions and UN forces will completely depart.
Israel will agree to respect Palestinian sovereignty over its air-space.
The Blockade of Gaza:
Israel shall maintain the blockade of Gaza only so long as rocket fire continues into Israel from that region. As such rocket fire has significantly decreased, however, Israel’s blockade must also ease. Israel will commit itself to ending the blockade entirely contingent upon the cessation of attacks upon it. Israel shall, however, immediately begin the process of easing the blockade by allowing into Gaza any, and all, food and medical supplies, as well as the building materials needed for Gazan reconstruction.
Economic Development:
The United Nations shall, upon Palestinian approval, sponsor an economic development plan for Palestine in the spirit of the post-World War II "Marshall Plan." In order to successfully achieve an ongoing peace there must also be economic development in the state of Palestine. The United Nations will therefore spear-head a program in which any governments or corporations throughout the world may participate.
The purpose will be to create the material and economic infrastructure necessary for the emergence of a strong Palestinian middle-class.
Note: This diary is, obviously, not dKos I-P meta, but I would still be curious to know what you guys think. I am, of course, flexible on my suggestions.
Posted by Karmafish
Monday, August 31, 2009
Sunday, August 30, 2009
Controlling What We Can Control
I was living in Arad, Israel in 1998 and 1999. I was in an advanced Ulpan (Hebrew Language Course) when I starting talking politics with my middle-age, female, Hebrew teacher. Politically, there is not really a party that represents my views in Israel. In Israeli politics I would be considered a defense oriented secularist. I suppose the short lived Shinui best represented my views, but I disliked them because of the rampant anti-religious screed of their leader, Tommy Lapid. My teacher, on the other hand, was a Shalom Achshav (Peace Now)/Meretz voter. When I asked her how she could support these political movement, she stated "I don't care what other people (the Palestinians and Arab states) do, I can only control my government."
I can't say that based upon this, I shifted my political views. However, what she said has a particular resonance. I have no control over what my opponent does. All I can try to control is what I do. I can't make my opponent act morally, I can only try to make my government act morally.
I tie this in to a statement that Shimon Peres made in the summer of 1999. It was at a private gathering at the Peres Center for Peace, so you wouldn't have read it in the papers. During a question and answer period, Peres was asked what his greatest regret was about the peace process and he answered "the fact that a Palestinian left never emerged to rival the Israeli left." Where the Palestinian rival to Shalom Achshav and Meretz to say "I don't care what my rival does, I only care that my government is doing the right thing?"
I think this is an important point because it is absent on Daily Kos. Every day TomJ writes a diary about something Israel is doing and refuses any attempt to answer questions about the responsibility of Palestinian Leaders. And Keith Moon does the same thing. Perhaps if things were reversed, the dialogue at Daily Kos wouldn't be so toxic. I wonder what would happen if TomJ were to write an article about the failure of the Palestinians to recognize Israel's right to exist almost 20 years after Oslo and Keith Moon were to write an article about the damage done to peace, not to mention international respect, by having an extremist as Israel's foreign minister.
Too much of the I/P debate as Daily Kos reminds me of fights I used to have with my siblings when we were kids. Me: "Moooooom, [my brother] took off his shoes even though you said not to." Mom: "Worry about yourself." I don't know about you, but I think Daily Kos I/P debates could use a healthy dose of this motherly advise.
I can't say that based upon this, I shifted my political views. However, what she said has a particular resonance. I have no control over what my opponent does. All I can try to control is what I do. I can't make my opponent act morally, I can only try to make my government act morally.
I tie this in to a statement that Shimon Peres made in the summer of 1999. It was at a private gathering at the Peres Center for Peace, so you wouldn't have read it in the papers. During a question and answer period, Peres was asked what his greatest regret was about the peace process and he answered "the fact that a Palestinian left never emerged to rival the Israeli left." Where the Palestinian rival to Shalom Achshav and Meretz to say "I don't care what my rival does, I only care that my government is doing the right thing?"
I think this is an important point because it is absent on Daily Kos. Every day TomJ writes a diary about something Israel is doing and refuses any attempt to answer questions about the responsibility of Palestinian Leaders. And Keith Moon does the same thing. Perhaps if things were reversed, the dialogue at Daily Kos wouldn't be so toxic. I wonder what would happen if TomJ were to write an article about the failure of the Palestinians to recognize Israel's right to exist almost 20 years after Oslo and Keith Moon were to write an article about the damage done to peace, not to mention international respect, by having an extremist as Israel's foreign minister.
Too much of the I/P debate as Daily Kos reminds me of fights I used to have with my siblings when we were kids. Me: "Moooooom, [my brother] took off his shoes even though you said not to." Mom: "Worry about yourself." I don't know about you, but I think Daily Kos I/P debates could use a healthy dose of this motherly advise.
Friday, August 28, 2009
Anti-Muslim / Anti-Arab Racism
One of the discussions taking place on dKos today is concerned with expressions of anti-Muslim and/or anti-Arab racism there. I think it was Paul that pointed out that he wasn't as attuned to it as he might be and unquestionably this is something that we will need to be more attuned to as well. We cannot, in good conscience, complain about expressions of anti-Semitism if we are going to be entirely oblivious to anti-Muslim expressions here.
I am also concerned about the possibility of sockpuppetry taking place. On many blogs sockpuppetry is welcome, but we need to decide whether or not it will be welcome here. This is entirely DKW's decision. Speaking for myself, I do not like the idea of interacting with people who are taking on multiple identities. There are places in the political blog-o-sphere where that is not at all uncommon, however those are not places that I would ever choose to participate in.
If this blog is to succeed, I honestly believe we must do a better job of policing ourselves. However, and again, these kinds of decisions are entirely up to the site-owner. They are not up to me. The only choice I have is whether or not to participate. Since I believe that the purpose of this site is necessary, I very much want to, and intend to, continue my participation.
But I will not be able to do so if I find myself interacting with people who either make bigoted comments concerning Muslims or who insist upon misrepresenting themselves.
None of us are perfect and there are any number of people on Daily Kos, and elsewhere, who would be more than happy to point out my own many foibles, failings, fuck ups, flaws and other such "f" words indicating personal imperfections. But I also sincerely believe that moving forward we must do a better job in certain areas.
That being the case, I am going to arrogantly take it upon myself to request that other members here avoid anti-Arab racism (or any other expressions of racism toward anyone) and to request that if anyone has taken on multiple identities that they cease doing so. It's not really my place to make these requests, but what the hell?
I just did.
Posted by Karmafish
I am also concerned about the possibility of sockpuppetry taking place. On many blogs sockpuppetry is welcome, but we need to decide whether or not it will be welcome here. This is entirely DKW's decision. Speaking for myself, I do not like the idea of interacting with people who are taking on multiple identities. There are places in the political blog-o-sphere where that is not at all uncommon, however those are not places that I would ever choose to participate in.
If this blog is to succeed, I honestly believe we must do a better job of policing ourselves. However, and again, these kinds of decisions are entirely up to the site-owner. They are not up to me. The only choice I have is whether or not to participate. Since I believe that the purpose of this site is necessary, I very much want to, and intend to, continue my participation.
But I will not be able to do so if I find myself interacting with people who either make bigoted comments concerning Muslims or who insist upon misrepresenting themselves.
None of us are perfect and there are any number of people on Daily Kos, and elsewhere, who would be more than happy to point out my own many foibles, failings, fuck ups, flaws and other such "f" words indicating personal imperfections. But I also sincerely believe that moving forward we must do a better job in certain areas.
That being the case, I am going to arrogantly take it upon myself to request that other members here avoid anti-Arab racism (or any other expressions of racism toward anyone) and to request that if anyone has taken on multiple identities that they cease doing so. It's not really my place to make these requests, but what the hell?
I just did.
Posted by Karmafish
Strange Success
I like the fact that Daily Kos Watch has become a regular feature of the I/P debate. Not sure that it means anything in the long run, but for some reason it makes me smile. I also like how they make us out to be some nefarious organization. Here is something I have noted before. A kind of silly sentiment:
I am curious why it has to be a Kos bashing site. Is Human Rights Watch a human rights bashing organization or an organization that monitors human rights? If UN Watch a UN bashing site, or a site that monitors the UN? Monitoring something is not the same as bashing it. This is the same type of rhetoric that says criticizing America is akin to treason. Just like I love America and that is why I speak out when I oppose its policies, I like Daily Kos and feel the need to speak out when I see trends I don't like.
In the same comment, the author, buhdydharma, claims that I insinuate that Meteor Blades is a secret muslim. First of all, I have never even come close to mentioning Meteor Blades religion, not do I have any reason to suggest that if he were Muslim, he needed to keep it a secret. This comment is truly amazing, because what you are witnessing is someone claiming that my criticism of Meteor Blades is somehow related to the fact that he is a Muslim, the same thing they condemn when people claim criticism of Israel to be anti-semitism. I want this to be perfectly clear, so I am going to repost what I wrote about Meteor Blades. It demonstrates that the claim that I said Metero Blades is a secret muslim is both false and evidence of the complete hypocrisy of the commenter and his 3 upraters.
How something named DailyKosWatch could NOT be a Dkos bashing site is kinda problematic
I am curious why it has to be a Kos bashing site. Is Human Rights Watch a human rights bashing organization or an organization that monitors human rights? If UN Watch a UN bashing site, or a site that monitors the UN? Monitoring something is not the same as bashing it. This is the same type of rhetoric that says criticizing America is akin to treason. Just like I love America and that is why I speak out when I oppose its policies, I like Daily Kos and feel the need to speak out when I see trends I don't like.
In the same comment, the author, buhdydharma, claims that I insinuate that Meteor Blades is a secret muslim. First of all, I have never even come close to mentioning Meteor Blades religion, not do I have any reason to suggest that if he were Muslim, he needed to keep it a secret. This comment is truly amazing, because what you are witnessing is someone claiming that my criticism of Meteor Blades is somehow related to the fact that he is a Muslim, the same thing they condemn when people claim criticism of Israel to be anti-semitism. I want this to be perfectly clear, so I am going to repost what I wrote about Meteor Blades. It demonstrates that the claim that I said Metero Blades is a secret muslim is both false and evidence of the complete hypocrisy of the commenter and his 3 upraters.
There is a distinction on Daily Kos between "Front Pagers" and the rest of us. Front Pagers have the ability to post things on the "front page" while the rest of us post in the columns on the side. A Front Pager is also one who could be said to "represent the site." One such person is Meteor Blades who has also taken over the role of arbitrator of disputes. Thus, he has made the rule that in any debate you cannot compare the Nazis to anyone in the I/P debate. He also warns, suspends or terminates people that, in his opinion, regularly go over the line.
The problem that I see is that Meteor Blades comes to the issue with his own viewpoints. Thus, when a diarist such as Karmafish accuses a poster supporting Hamas of supporting terrorism, Meteor Blades warns KarmaFish instead of the people supporting Hamas.
Meteor Blades, the Arbitrator of what is and is not allowed to be said, thinks Comparisons of Zionism and Nazism are fair, just not at Daily Kos.:
* [new] Comparisons of Zionism with Naziism ... (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:blueness
...are forbidden. While this might be a perfectly reasonable discussion to have in a more nuanced environment, say at a political journal or face to face among scholars, the I/P threads at Daily Kos do not qualify as such an environment and have a long history of disruptive behavior associated with such accusations. These are not productive, which is why we forbid them. Please cease and desist.
Some people would be better off not reading diaries they comment on, since they already have all the answers.
by Meteor Blades on Mon Aug 03, 2009 at 05:18:24 PM EDT
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
And here is another one of his gems:
I support the right of those Palestinians (and their offspring) who can prove a direct lineage that put them in what is now Israel prior to 1948, or who have been forced out since then.
I do not support the "return" of Palestinians whose families do not originate from what is now Israel.
That may not be Solomonic, but it is fair, and it does not mean an end to the Jewish state. [My emphasis not in the original]
Addendum: I also support the rights of Jews expelled from Arab countries to be considered refugees, with all that status implies.
The comment I really wanted to focus on, I can't find after 30 minutes of looking. If anyone can find it and post it in the comments, I would appreciate it. It is the comment where Meteor Blades states that "All Settlements Are Illegal." This was the comment that first inspired me to create this blog. A person who "represents" Daily Kos, A Democratic Blog, making such a gross misstatement and one that so directly conflicts with the Democratic Platform. Failure to distinguish between major Israeli cities like Efrat and fanatical religious outposts in the West Bank is shameful.
The larger issue is that if Meteor Blades is going to comment substantively, he should not be the arbitrator of what is allowed. That is like the fox watching the hen house. Furthermore, why is it that Meteor Blades gets to be the sole voice on what is and is not anti-semitism? Why can he continue to call for more and more support for Deniac's claim that TomJ is an anti-semite based upon some very dubious links in his profile while at the same time attacking Keith Moon for posting diaries intended to balance the All Gaza All The Time Crowd?
Finally, what I want to know is does Meteor Blades "represent" Daily Kos when he says those things. Are his views the ones we want the Democratic Party to think Daily Kos stands for? If so, count me out.
Thursday, August 27, 2009
Criticism versus Vilification
It's clear that one of the problems that we have is that many these "liberals" within Daily Kos I-P simply do not understand the difference between criticism and vilification. AmbroseBurnside wrote a diary about a lawsuit resulting from the revolting and dangerous Aftonbladet blood libel.
The Swedish tabloid, which has admitted that it has absolutely no evidence to back up its claim, told the world that the Jews of Israel are killing Palestinians for the purpose of harvesting their organs for sale on the world market. It's a disgrace and Ambrose, rightly so, pointed this out, as well as the fact that the tabloid is being sued in New York City by a Jewish lawyer.
In response, one commenter sarcastically proclaimed:
"Any criticism of Israel.. is anti-Semitism. As always."
Criticism?
This is criticism?
No, I do not think so.
This is what is referred to as the Livingstone Formulation. It is the idea that one can deflect even the most vicious anti-Semitic attack by proclaiming, "You cannot criticize Israel without being called anti-Semitic."
Criticism, if it is criticism, objects to specific policies and explains why those policies are mistaken and offers suggestions on how to correct those mistakes. That is criticism. Repeating centuries old anti-Semitic themes about how Jews love to kill innocent non-Jews is not "criticism." It is vilification. It is anti-Semitism. It is the spreading of hatred.
It should be noted, however, that this comment received only one uprate, but eleven downrates. It should be further noted, unfortunately, that all, or virtually all, of those downrates came from Jews.
They are:
Why do we get no support?
The thrust of the comments, moreover, opposed the lawsuit. I find it highly unusual that when a newspaper publishes an article screaming that Jews kill to steal organs that the "liberals" in Daily Kos I-P expend most of their pixels on how stupid and wrong it is for a Jewish lawyer to fight back against this insidious and hateful charge against the Jewish people.
And, yet, they still demand Jewish support and the support of friends of Israel.
It's ridiculous.
Many of them simply do not understand the difference between criticism and vilification.
And I am not the least little bit sure that they care.
Posted by Karmafish
The Swedish tabloid, which has admitted that it has absolutely no evidence to back up its claim, told the world that the Jews of Israel are killing Palestinians for the purpose of harvesting their organs for sale on the world market. It's a disgrace and Ambrose, rightly so, pointed this out, as well as the fact that the tabloid is being sued in New York City by a Jewish lawyer.
In response, one commenter sarcastically proclaimed:
"Any criticism of Israel.. is anti-Semitism. As always."
Criticism?
This is criticism?
No, I do not think so.
This is what is referred to as the Livingstone Formulation. It is the idea that one can deflect even the most vicious anti-Semitic attack by proclaiming, "You cannot criticize Israel without being called anti-Semitic."
Criticism, if it is criticism, objects to specific policies and explains why those policies are mistaken and offers suggestions on how to correct those mistakes. That is criticism. Repeating centuries old anti-Semitic themes about how Jews love to kill innocent non-Jews is not "criticism." It is vilification. It is anti-Semitism. It is the spreading of hatred.
It should be noted, however, that this comment received only one uprate, but eleven downrates. It should be further noted, unfortunately, that all, or virtually all, of those downrates came from Jews.
They are:
- Paul in Berkeley, arielle, Karmafish, Red Sox, zemblan, Shane Hensinger, BFSkinner, aggregatescience, volleyboy1, The YENTA Of The Opera, sorenScostanza
Why do we get no support?
The thrust of the comments, moreover, opposed the lawsuit. I find it highly unusual that when a newspaper publishes an article screaming that Jews kill to steal organs that the "liberals" in Daily Kos I-P expend most of their pixels on how stupid and wrong it is for a Jewish lawyer to fight back against this insidious and hateful charge against the Jewish people.
And, yet, they still demand Jewish support and the support of friends of Israel.
It's ridiculous.
Many of them simply do not understand the difference between criticism and vilification.
And I am not the least little bit sure that they care.
Posted by Karmafish
Wednesday, August 26, 2009
Interesting Site
This was on the blogroll of someone I have never seen in the I/P debates. I read the first two articles and both were interesting. This one in particular. This article tends to sum up most of my views about the peace process. Anyone esle familiar with this website? It is www.southjerusalem.com
Regards,
DKW
Regards,
DKW
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
By dmsarad. Promoted by Karmafish.
Part of an interesting exchange between anti-Zionist ideologue Christopher Day and dmsarad concerning Keith Moon's latest effort.
Day's words in bold and italic. - KF
But rather because I'm not willing to play this sick game of treating Palestinian children as rhetorical pawns while they are being robbed of their childhoods by the Israeli occupation and seige.
So if Moon is using them as rhetorical pawns, what about whenever someone else posts about them? It seems to me that support Palestinian side = loves the children, oppose Palestinian side = using them as rhetorical pawn.
Moon doesn't give a shit if you burn a Palestinian school girl's flesh to the bone with white phosphorous or collapse her home on her with a missile, or humiliate her father in front of her at a checkpoint. Indeed he is an apologist for all of the above.
This is exactly the problem with I/P debates. If I said that you are TomJ or Heathlander didn't care about the murder of Israeli civilians, about the kidnapping and torture of Israeli soldiers, about Hamas support and participation in Terrorism, I would be called all sorts of vile names and HRed. But you can do it to Moon because he doesn't agree with you on I/P issues.
There are dozens of policies and practices of Israel that I could demand that you or Keith "condemn," but such a method of argumentation has nothing to do with actually working through the issue and everything to do with intimidation.
This is routinely done. In fact, it is common. Post an article about what Hamas is doing and the response is always "Yeah, but what about Israel." I hardly need to condemn Israel, there are plenty of peopl ehere to do it for anything and everything. This is the site that defended the Swedish article claiming that the IDF was harvesting the organs of Palestinians to sell on the black market. Nonetheless, even in this diary alone I have criticized the religious influence in the Israeli government. I have stated this before, but the advantage I have over people like you is that I recognize that conceding a point often gets your more credibility than arguing a silly point.
if so and so fails to "condemn" such and such policy or practice of Hamas this is taken as evidence of their sympathy for Hamas and therefore with all of its methods including suicide bombing and firing rockets at Sderot. Its demagogery 101 and the proper response is always to refuse to play.
Just to come full circle, I refer you back to your comment "Moon doesn't give a shit if you burn a Palestinian school girl's flesh to the bone with white phosphorous or collapse her home on her with a missile, or humiliate her father in front of her at a checkpoint." If Moon's views on the I/P Conflict engenders this type of response from you, I certainly think that the failure to condemn Hamas can equate to support for Hamas and their tactics. Again, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Part of an interesting exchange between anti-Zionist ideologue Christopher Day and dmsarad concerning Keith Moon's latest effort.
Day's words in bold and italic. - KF
But rather because I'm not willing to play this sick game of treating Palestinian children as rhetorical pawns while they are being robbed of their childhoods by the Israeli occupation and seige.
So if Moon is using them as rhetorical pawns, what about whenever someone else posts about them? It seems to me that support Palestinian side = loves the children, oppose Palestinian side = using them as rhetorical pawn.
Moon doesn't give a shit if you burn a Palestinian school girl's flesh to the bone with white phosphorous or collapse her home on her with a missile, or humiliate her father in front of her at a checkpoint. Indeed he is an apologist for all of the above.
This is exactly the problem with I/P debates. If I said that you are TomJ or Heathlander didn't care about the murder of Israeli civilians, about the kidnapping and torture of Israeli soldiers, about Hamas support and participation in Terrorism, I would be called all sorts of vile names and HRed. But you can do it to Moon because he doesn't agree with you on I/P issues.
There are dozens of policies and practices of Israel that I could demand that you or Keith "condemn," but such a method of argumentation has nothing to do with actually working through the issue and everything to do with intimidation.
This is routinely done. In fact, it is common. Post an article about what Hamas is doing and the response is always "Yeah, but what about Israel." I hardly need to condemn Israel, there are plenty of peopl ehere to do it for anything and everything. This is the site that defended the Swedish article claiming that the IDF was harvesting the organs of Palestinians to sell on the black market. Nonetheless, even in this diary alone I have criticized the religious influence in the Israeli government. I have stated this before, but the advantage I have over people like you is that I recognize that conceding a point often gets your more credibility than arguing a silly point.
if so and so fails to "condemn" such and such policy or practice of Hamas this is taken as evidence of their sympathy for Hamas and therefore with all of its methods including suicide bombing and firing rockets at Sderot. Its demagogery 101 and the proper response is always to refuse to play.
Just to come full circle, I refer you back to your comment "Moon doesn't give a shit if you burn a Palestinian school girl's flesh to the bone with white phosphorous or collapse her home on her with a missile, or humiliate her father in front of her at a checkpoint." If Moon's views on the I/P Conflict engenders this type of response from you, I certainly think that the failure to condemn Hamas can equate to support for Hamas and their tactics. Again, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Tuesday, August 25, 2009
Grotesque
It's just fucking grotesque.
I see that Keith Moon has another diary up on Daily Kos criticizing Hamas and, needless to say, some people are taking him to the woodshed for daring to be mean to that "legitimate" group of "freedom fighters."
Christ a'mighty, why in the world would anyone want to say anything mean about an organization that calls quite specifically for the murder of Jewish people? I mean, within dKos I-P, Hamas is not controversial, but complaining about them is.
And that's the problem in a nutshell, now isn't it?
Day after day after day.
Yesterday we had people defending the blood libel published by the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet.
Heathlander suggested that the Israeli government response to that article, which as you know suggested that Jews kill Palestinians for the purpose of harvesting their organs, was nothing more than a transparent attempt to divert people's attention from the settlements... and almost twice as many people uprated that comment as downrated it. He makes this claim, with no supporting evidence, of course, as if it's inconceivable that Israelis and Jews might have good historical and actual reasons for opposing European anti-Semitism in a part of the world next door to where millions of Jews were slaughtered within living memory.
It's just fucking grotesque.
And these people are "liberals"?
Disgusting.
I see that Keith Moon has another diary up on Daily Kos criticizing Hamas and, needless to say, some people are taking him to the woodshed for daring to be mean to that "legitimate" group of "freedom fighters."
Christ a'mighty, why in the world would anyone want to say anything mean about an organization that calls quite specifically for the murder of Jewish people? I mean, within dKos I-P, Hamas is not controversial, but complaining about them is.
And that's the problem in a nutshell, now isn't it?
Day after day after day.
Yesterday we had people defending the blood libel published by the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet.
Heathlander suggested that the Israeli government response to that article, which as you know suggested that Jews kill Palestinians for the purpose of harvesting their organs, was nothing more than a transparent attempt to divert people's attention from the settlements... and almost twice as many people uprated that comment as downrated it. He makes this claim, with no supporting evidence, of course, as if it's inconceivable that Israelis and Jews might have good historical and actual reasons for opposing European anti-Semitism in a part of the world next door to where millions of Jews were slaughtered within living memory.
It's just fucking grotesque.
And these people are "liberals"?
Disgusting.
Back From Vacation
Was at a cabin in the woods. No internet or phone service from Friday to Monday. What a way to spend a few days! I won't be on much today because I have to catch up on work, but I will be back with passion tomorrow. Thanks to Karmafish for keeping things going while I was gone.
Regards,
DKW
Regards,
DKW
Sunday, August 23, 2009
Do You Feel Harassed?
I know that I do.
Day after day after day on Daily Kos, Israel comes in for a beating. On the largest Democratic blog in the United States, there is no country in the world as hated as Israel. Israel is accused of “ethnic cleansing” of the Palestinians. It is accused of being a racist Apartheid regime. It is compared to the Jim Crow south. It is accused of genocide and of being a colonialist, imperialist tool of the United States while simultaneously, somehow or other, controlling the US government via AIPAC.
Day after day after day.
Diary after diary after diary, anything that can be used to whip up hatred for Israel will be used to whip up hatred for Israel. Did some Jewish-American kid in a bar in Tel Aviv say something nasty about Barack Obama? It gets diaried on Daily Kos. Did some Israeli soldier accidentally hit a protestor with a tear gas canister? It gets diaried on Daily Kos. This is what we deal with on a daily basis if we wish to participate there. They argue that Israel should be boycotted. They argue that foreign aid should be cut off. They claim that Zionism is inherently racist or imperialist or colonialist or neo-colonialist. They argue that it should never have come into existence to begin with and that Hamas is a legitimate organization and that the thousands of Qassams and Katyushas that terrorized the people of S’derot and Ashkelon for years represent legitimate resistance to oppression. This despite the fact that Israel vacated the Gaza in 2005.
So, why do I feel harassed? I am not Israeli. I am American. But I am also a Jew.
“Oh,” you may say, “Karma, none of this is meant to insult Jews. It is not Jewish people who are the problem, but merely Israel as a state.”
Horseshit.
I do not buy this lie. Israel is the Jewish state and it is home to nearly half of the world’s Jewish population and it is, furthermore, supported by most of the rest. So, when Israel acts it reflects on Jews throughout the world. When Israel does good, this reflects well on Jews and when Israel does bad, this, too, reflects on Jews. So when people who consider themselves “liberals” or “progressives” or “leftists” kick the holy shit out of Israel on a daily basis, please do not tell me this has nothing to do with the Jews. It’s transparent nonsense. Of course it’s about the Jews.
Do you think for one moment that the incessant demonization, dehumanization, and demeaning of all things Israel is meant to reflect on Israel’s non-Jewish population? Nonsense. Jews make up 80 percent of the Israeli population and, for the most part, control that country. When these people heap garbage on the lone Jewish state they are saying something, whether they admit it or not, whether we admit it or not, about the Jews.
And what they are saying is, oh, less than pleasant, shall we say.
That’s one way of putting it. Another is that they are involved in a campaign of vilification of the Jewish state that seeks to undermine its very existence as a country, while bolstering anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic violence around the globe.
But, we’re not supposed to notice, I guess. We’re just supposed to take it and keep our mouths shut. But things are changing. Jewish support for liberal causes and for the Democratic Party is not unqualified. One of the things that has caused some people on Daily Kos to spit poison at me, personally, is that I have dared to tell them that if this continues to get worse it will alienate Jews from the party and the movement. And is this not obvious? Do they honestly think that they can perpetually heap abuse on the Jewish state and liberal American Jews will continue to support them?
I don’t think so. It’s just common sense. If you slap someone around you cannot expect that person to reward you with financial support or any other kind of support.
Even if they are Jewish.
Posted by Karmafish
Friday, August 21, 2009
Fixation
To get a sense of Daily Kos's fixation on the Jewish state one need only compare tag searches. In the last week, for example, between August 15 and today, Fri August 21, there were 21 diaries concerned with Israel.
http://www.dailykos.com/tag/Israel
An average of about 3 per day.
Israel, of course, is a tiny country with about 7 million people, 80 percent of whom are Jewish. It contains about 40 percent of the small world Jewish population of approximately 13 million people. Yet Israel is entirely under the spotlight. There is far, far more concern about the doings of Israel on Daily Kos than virtually any other country on the planet.
China, as an illustration, contains about 1.3 billion people and its influence, ultimately, is considerably more important to the well-being of the United States than is Israel's. China's human rights abuses, furthermore, are in many respects considerably worse than Israel's. The Chinese regime regularly jails its own citizens for criticism of the government and the Dalai Lama has stated that Chinese settlers in Tibet were creating "Chinese Apartheid." Given Daily Kos's alleged interest in human rights abuses you would think that they might have an interest in discussing China, yet in the past week there have been a grand total of two diaries concerning that country, with a total of 39 comments between them and neither of those diaries are about human rights abuses. In contrast, the 21 diaries concerned with Israel contain, as of this moment, 2,981 comments.
2,981!
http://www.dailykos.com/tag/China
As another illustration one might consider the case of Darfur. Estimates of the death toll there due to genocide vary from about 50,000 to over 300,000 in recent years, compared to the 1,400 dead in "Cast Lead." Despite the fact that the tragedy in Darfur is much worse than what has happened in Gaza there is virtually zero interest in the Sudan on Daily Kos. A simple tag search shows that no one has written a diary tagged "Darfur" since late June and even that diary received all of 3 comments. If you tag search "Sudan" you will see that there was exactly one diary written this entire month.
http://www.dailykos.com/tag/Darfur
http://www.dailykos.com/tag/Sudan
When queried about this fixation on Israel, Kossacks usually claim that the reason is because of US aid to that country, as if their concern for human rights only extends to their wallets, yet the fact is that left-liberal European fixation on Israel is even more pronounced than the American left's fixation, yet the European countries do not proffer aid to Israel. One might assume that the fixation is a fixation with the Middle East, more generally. This, of course, makes sense given the US invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. However, if that were the case one would think that Egypt, which is not exactly a human rights shangri-la and that is also responsible for the blockade of Gaza, would come in for scrutiny, but it does not. A tag search of "Egypt" reveals three diaries for the entire month of August, one of which is actually an I-P diary. The other two contain a whopping 37 comments.
http://www.dailykos.com/tag/Egypt
So.... Why the fixation on the one, small, lone Jewish state?
I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation.
Posted by Karmafish
http://www.dailykos.com/tag/Israel
An average of about 3 per day.
Israel, of course, is a tiny country with about 7 million people, 80 percent of whom are Jewish. It contains about 40 percent of the small world Jewish population of approximately 13 million people. Yet Israel is entirely under the spotlight. There is far, far more concern about the doings of Israel on Daily Kos than virtually any other country on the planet.
China, as an illustration, contains about 1.3 billion people and its influence, ultimately, is considerably more important to the well-being of the United States than is Israel's. China's human rights abuses, furthermore, are in many respects considerably worse than Israel's. The Chinese regime regularly jails its own citizens for criticism of the government and the Dalai Lama has stated that Chinese settlers in Tibet were creating "Chinese Apartheid." Given Daily Kos's alleged interest in human rights abuses you would think that they might have an interest in discussing China, yet in the past week there have been a grand total of two diaries concerning that country, with a total of 39 comments between them and neither of those diaries are about human rights abuses. In contrast, the 21 diaries concerned with Israel contain, as of this moment, 2,981 comments.
2,981!
http://www.dailykos.com/tag/China
As another illustration one might consider the case of Darfur. Estimates of the death toll there due to genocide vary from about 50,000 to over 300,000 in recent years, compared to the 1,400 dead in "Cast Lead." Despite the fact that the tragedy in Darfur is much worse than what has happened in Gaza there is virtually zero interest in the Sudan on Daily Kos. A simple tag search shows that no one has written a diary tagged "Darfur" since late June and even that diary received all of 3 comments. If you tag search "Sudan" you will see that there was exactly one diary written this entire month.
http://www.dailykos.com/tag/Darfur
http://www.dailykos.com/tag/Sudan
When queried about this fixation on Israel, Kossacks usually claim that the reason is because of US aid to that country, as if their concern for human rights only extends to their wallets, yet the fact is that left-liberal European fixation on Israel is even more pronounced than the American left's fixation, yet the European countries do not proffer aid to Israel. One might assume that the fixation is a fixation with the Middle East, more generally. This, of course, makes sense given the US invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. However, if that were the case one would think that Egypt, which is not exactly a human rights shangri-la and that is also responsible for the blockade of Gaza, would come in for scrutiny, but it does not. A tag search of "Egypt" reveals three diaries for the entire month of August, one of which is actually an I-P diary. The other two contain a whopping 37 comments.
http://www.dailykos.com/tag/Egypt
So.... Why the fixation on the one, small, lone Jewish state?
I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation.
Posted by Karmafish
Thursday, August 20, 2009
Credit Where Credit is Due
The site owner and I both agree that Daily Kos Watch should not be a Kos-bashing site, but a blog where Daily Kos I-P is tracked and discussed. This means that when there is anti-Semitism expressed on Daily Kos, or when Israel is unfairly smacked around on that site, we will point it out here and discuss it.
However, it strikes me as only fair that when members of the Daily Kos I-P community do the right thing it should also be acknowledged. In a diary published today by Tom J, one commenter made the following observation:
"Israeli's are scum."
Nice.
For those of you who are not Trusted Users on Daily Kos the link will not work because the comment has been "Hide Rated" by other Daily Kos members. This is a good thing because it is the way that "Kossacks" express their disapproval of a given comment. As I write, 16 members expressed their disapproval including:
Credit where credit is due.
Posted by Karmafish
However, it strikes me as only fair that when members of the Daily Kos I-P community do the right thing it should also be acknowledged. In a diary published today by Tom J, one commenter made the following observation:
"Israeli's are scum."
Nice.
For those of you who are not Trusted Users on Daily Kos the link will not work because the comment has been "Hide Rated" by other Daily Kos members. This is a good thing because it is the way that "Kossacks" express their disapproval of a given comment. As I write, 16 members expressed their disapproval including:
- mattman, capelza, jon the antizionist jew, Karmafish, tazz, Tom J, heathlander, dmsarad, Terra Mystica, RandomActsOfReason, unspeakable, BFSkinner, Dexter, soysauce, palestinian professor, GillesDeleuze
Credit where credit is due.
Posted by Karmafish
Wednesday, August 19, 2009
If Ya Can't Have It All
In an interesting exchange between another American and Soysauce, aA seeks to pin down Soy on where she stands viz-a-viz the "right of return."
After a little hedging, Soysauce made this claim:
I have a position. I demand respect for international law which means full right of return. If the refugees want to settle for less than what is entitled to them as a basic human right, I will not stand in their way. That is their right. Is that clear?
Leaving aside the question of whether or not international law requires full right of return, to demand such a thing is nothing less than demanding that the Knesset dissolve Israel as a Jewish state.
It should be obvious that there are certain political realities that anyone must face if they wish to advocate for a people. Anyone who wishes to advocate for the Palestinian people must recognize the full right of return is entirely a non-starter. The Knesset will never allow any such thing for obvious reasons. It would mean that Jews, yet again, would find themselves a minority whose well-being would be entirely dependent upon the good will of the majority. It would mean that after 2,000 years of exiles and pogroms and persecutions, all leading to the Holocaust, the Jews would give up on self-determination and self-defense and throw themselves on the mercy of other people.
This clearly is not going to happen.
Posted by Karmafish
After a little hedging, Soysauce made this claim:
I have a position. I demand respect for international law which means full right of return. If the refugees want to settle for less than what is entitled to them as a basic human right, I will not stand in their way. That is their right. Is that clear?
Leaving aside the question of whether or not international law requires full right of return, to demand such a thing is nothing less than demanding that the Knesset dissolve Israel as a Jewish state.
It should be obvious that there are certain political realities that anyone must face if they wish to advocate for a people. Anyone who wishes to advocate for the Palestinian people must recognize the full right of return is entirely a non-starter. The Knesset will never allow any such thing for obvious reasons. It would mean that Jews, yet again, would find themselves a minority whose well-being would be entirely dependent upon the good will of the majority. It would mean that after 2,000 years of exiles and pogroms and persecutions, all leading to the Holocaust, the Jews would give up on self-determination and self-defense and throw themselves on the mercy of other people.
This clearly is not going to happen.
Posted by Karmafish
Tuesday, August 18, 2009
Israel Likes to Murder Children
In this diary by Tom J one commenter noted the following:
While most of us here presumably oppose the occupation, as I do, this reference to murdering children represents precisely the kind of toxic hyperbole that often characterizes the very worst of Daily Kos I-P.
It also brings to mind the classic Blood Libel, in which Jews throughout the Middle Ages were accused of murdering Christian children in order to use their blood for ritual purposes or to make matzoh.
It represents, in my view, an updated version of the Blood Libel, except that instead of accusing Jews one simply accuses the Jewish state. The implication, of course, is not that Israel is a rational actor in an exceedingly difficult world, but that it is a Moral Monster on the world stage intent on spreading violence and misery.
I would argue that such notions also help spread anti-Semitism because if Israel is the Jewish state, and if Israel has the support of most diaspora Jews, what can this say about Jews, in general?
Nothing good, that's for certain.
Posted by Karmafish
We need action to stop this illegal occupation and do whatever it takes to end the murder of innocent children.
While most of us here presumably oppose the occupation, as I do, this reference to murdering children represents precisely the kind of toxic hyperbole that often characterizes the very worst of Daily Kos I-P.
It also brings to mind the classic Blood Libel, in which Jews throughout the Middle Ages were accused of murdering Christian children in order to use their blood for ritual purposes or to make matzoh.
It represents, in my view, an updated version of the Blood Libel, except that instead of accusing Jews one simply accuses the Jewish state. The implication, of course, is not that Israel is a rational actor in an exceedingly difficult world, but that it is a Moral Monster on the world stage intent on spreading violence and misery.
I would argue that such notions also help spread anti-Semitism because if Israel is the Jewish state, and if Israel has the support of most diaspora Jews, what can this say about Jews, in general?
Nothing good, that's for certain.
Posted by Karmafish
Bigotry at Daily Kos
Here is something that always goes on at Daily Kos.
Post something bad about Israel and you are not anti-semitic because opposing Israel is not the same as opposing Jews. A concept I agree with, although it is trumped out even when the comment is, in fact, anti-Semitic.
Post something bad about Palestine and you are an anti-Arab bigot.
I can sum up the rules of bigotry at Daily Kos quickly and simply.
1) Those who oppose Israel get to define anti-Semitism, and virtually nothing is anti-Semitism.
2) Those who oppose Israel get to define anti-Arab bigotry and just about anyone who supports Israel does so because of anti-Arab bigotry.
Regards,
DKW
Post something bad about Israel and you are not anti-semitic because opposing Israel is not the same as opposing Jews. A concept I agree with, although it is trumped out even when the comment is, in fact, anti-Semitic.
Post something bad about Palestine and you are an anti-Arab bigot.
I can sum up the rules of bigotry at Daily Kos quickly and simply.
1) Those who oppose Israel get to define anti-Semitism, and virtually nothing is anti-Semitism.
2) Those who oppose Israel get to define anti-Arab bigotry and just about anyone who supports Israel does so because of anti-Arab bigotry.
Regards,
DKW
Sunday, August 16, 2009
Is Iceland a Terrorist Country?
No?
How about Costa Rica or Honduras?
One of the common themes on Daily Kos I-P is that while it may be true that Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel also uses “terror” against innocent civilians, as expressed in this comment.
The truth is, of course, that if Israel is a “terrorist country,” for its invasion of Gaza during “Cast Lead,” this must mean that the United States is a far worse terrorist country for its invasion of Iraq. Furthermore, if the United States is a terrorist country than every country that helped it must also be considered a terrorist country.
The United Kingdom. Spain. Portugal. All terrorist countries.
Japan. South Korea. Singapore. All terrorist countries.
El Salvador. Colombia. Nicaragua. All terrorist countries.
It seems fairly obvious that by erasing the distinction between Hamas and Israel as terrorist organizations, then the very meaning of “terrorism” ceases to exist. In this way any group that sends suicide bombers into Tel Aviv (which, admittedly, has not happened in awhile) is no worse than Iceland, which provided support to the United States in its invasion of Iraq. In fact, given the level of carnage in Iraq, Iceland would actually have to be considered far worse than an organization like Hamas, which is responsible for far, far fewer deaths than the so-called Coalition of the Willing.
The tendency, among some on the left, to think of Israel as a terrorist country results in the elimination of “terrorism” as a viable concept. The elimination of terrorism as a viable concept, furthermore, results in its normalization.
I do not believe this is a road that the progressives should tread, but you can often find it among some on Daily Kos.
Posted by Karmafish
Thursday, August 13, 2009
Latest Attempt To Stop Foreign Aid To Israel
American Foreign Policy for years has recognized the importance of foreign aid to Israel. Indeed, a fundamental part of the Democratic Platform is to ensure that Israel mainains its military superiority. In a world surrounded by hostile neighbors, foreign aid demonstrates America's committment to the future of the State of Israel. It protects American interests vis a vis potentially harmful regimes like Iran and Syria, as well as recognized terrorists organizations like Hamas. It also boosts American jobs as the vast majority of foreign aid to Israel is spent on American products. This has been the lynchpin of Middle East Policy for decades.
Yet, every year, there is a small but vocal minority making the same arguments against aid to Israel. And it is starting to creep more and more into the Democratic Party. If more and better Democrats means eliminating foreign aid to Israel, as is suggested in this article on Daily Kos today, than count me out.
This is the policy that gets Democrats unelected, not the policy that gets them elected. If Daily Kos is really committed to electing Democrats it would fight these notions, not endorse them. Yet, the article has received 21 uprates and counting.
Regards,
DKW
Yet, every year, there is a small but vocal minority making the same arguments against aid to Israel. And it is starting to creep more and more into the Democratic Party. If more and better Democrats means eliminating foreign aid to Israel, as is suggested in this article on Daily Kos today, than count me out.
Yet the flow of US military support for Israel continues unabated. That is where the voices of reasonable people can make a difference. The US must stop such aid if it wants to further the cause of peace, if it wants to even pretend to be fair to all the people of the middle east.
This is the policy that gets Democrats unelected, not the policy that gets them elected. If Daily Kos is really committed to electing Democrats it would fight these notions, not endorse them. Yet, the article has received 21 uprates and counting.
Regards,
DKW
Wednesday, August 12, 2009
What's In A Name?
So we have been noticed a little by my friends at Daily Kos. Not a bad thing. I expect to be mocked by the people who become the subject of this blog. Looking at it realistically, first, they disagree with my view of the Middle East. Second, this is certainly an amateur blog. I have neither the time, nor the technological savvy to make this blog as good as Daily Kos. I also have a full time job.
There was some talk about the name of the blog. In fact, it was compared to "nazi sites:"
Interesting comparison to make. Certainly it cannot be an accident that the reference he makes is to Nazis. But in any event, attacking the name is just silly in my opinion. There is no comparison in the slightest between this blog and "Jihad Watch" or "Campus Watch." The argument is so illogical. It would be akin to me comparing George Bush and George Soros because the names sound similar. Or perhaps more in tune with what this comment said, it is like comparing Daily Kos to the Daily Express because they both contain the word daily.
I don't feel the need to be defensive. This blog is what it is. I only intend to shine light on things at Daily Kos that, in my opinion, go over the line and yet go unnoticed or, even worse, are celebrated. My goal is no different from Kos. To get more and better Democrats elected. I simply believe that if the views of certain people on Daily Kos were to become part of the Democratic Platform, our mission would be harder to do. In fact, just their unchallenged presence makes our job harder to do. We already needed "A Great Schlep" to help convince Jews to stick with Obama, and I am already hearing "I told you so" from those who didn't. This is what we are up against, and this is why I started this blog.
Regards,
DKW
There was some talk about the name of the blog. In fact, it was compared to "nazi sites:"
if you know who it is then tell her/him that I said that they should change their blog name. Because to the progressive ears it sounds like the Hitlet Youth blog: e.g., jihad watch, campus watch and other Nazi sites.
I suggest Hapoel-Kos is reflects the liberal attitude the participants.
Interesting comparison to make. Certainly it cannot be an accident that the reference he makes is to Nazis. But in any event, attacking the name is just silly in my opinion. There is no comparison in the slightest between this blog and "Jihad Watch" or "Campus Watch." The argument is so illogical. It would be akin to me comparing George Bush and George Soros because the names sound similar. Or perhaps more in tune with what this comment said, it is like comparing Daily Kos to the Daily Express because they both contain the word daily.
I don't feel the need to be defensive. This blog is what it is. I only intend to shine light on things at Daily Kos that, in my opinion, go over the line and yet go unnoticed or, even worse, are celebrated. My goal is no different from Kos. To get more and better Democrats elected. I simply believe that if the views of certain people on Daily Kos were to become part of the Democratic Platform, our mission would be harder to do. In fact, just their unchallenged presence makes our job harder to do. We already needed "A Great Schlep" to help convince Jews to stick with Obama, and I am already hearing "I told you so" from those who didn't. This is what we are up against, and this is why I started this blog.
Regards,
DKW
Tuesday, August 11, 2009
A Few Days Off -and Join This Blog
I am really busy at work, and for my own sanity, I need to stay away from the I/P world for a few days. After reading that awful Op-Ed in the NYT this morning, I know today is another day to stay away from DailyKos. So, you people are on your own again today. Go at it in the comments.
Oh, and about the comments, I have changed it so that you have to be a member to post a comment. I didn't like that people were stealing other people's names and posting. As SteveP said, it is a real breach of net etiquitte.
I am also thinking of adding another front page writer. It needs to be the right person and I am going to base it on conduct in the comments section.
Regards,
DKW
Oh, and about the comments, I have changed it so that you have to be a member to post a comment. I didn't like that people were stealing other people's names and posting. As SteveP said, it is a real breach of net etiquitte.
I am also thinking of adding another front page writer. It needs to be the right person and I am going to base it on conduct in the comments section.
Regards,
DKW
Saturday, August 8, 2009
Daily Kos Believes Israel Commits Genocide
23 uprates for this "dairy":
Read it. The entire thing is a plea to be able to call Israel genocidal without being HRed. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/7/763354/-Genocide,-I-P,-Language-and-Kosa-Meta-Rant-
Back during World War II a young Polish lawyer of Jewish Extraction by the name of Raphael Lemkin came to the United States, took a position at Duke University and coined a term that signified:
a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.
* SteveP's diary :: ::
*
Under such a definition, you could certainly disagree with such a statement, but it wouldn't be particularly controversial to assert that Israel's actions vis-a-vis the Palestinians would meet such a definition. You would violently disagree perhaps, but you wouldn't hide rate it. For that matter, you might also apply it to the aspirations of some Arab and Palestinian terror organizations.
But the pickle (and a large radioactive pickle too) comes when we add in the first couple of sentences of the quote I snipped above:
"Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.
That word - Genocide.
Read it. The entire thing is a plea to be able to call Israel genocidal without being HRed. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/7/763354/-Genocide,-I-P,-Language-and-Kosa-Meta-Rant-
Thursday, August 6, 2009
Who Is Meteor Blades?
There is a distinction on Daily Kos between "Front Pagers" and the rest of us. Front Pagers have the ability to post things on the "front page" while the rest of us post in the columns on the side. A Front Pager is also one who could be said to "represent the site." One such person is Meteor Blades who has also taken over the role of arbitrator of disputes. Thus, he has made the rule that in any debate you cannot compare the Nazis to anyone in the I/P debate. He also warns, suspends or terminates people that, in his opinion, regularly go over the line.
The problem that I see is that Meteor Blades comes to the issue with his own viewpoints. Thus, when a diarist such as Karmafish accuses a poster supporting Hamas of supporting terrorism, Meteor Blades warns KarmaFish instead of the people supporting Hamas.
Meteor Blades, the Arbitrator of what is and is not allowed to be said, thinks Comparisons of Zionism and Nazism are fair, just not at Daily Kos.:
And here is another one of his gems:
The comment I really wanted to focus on, I can't find after 30 minutes of looking. If anyone can find it and post it in the comments, I would appreciate it. It is the comment where Meteor Blades states that "All Settlements Are Illegal." This was the comment that first inspired me to create this blog. A person who "represents" Daily Kos, A Democratic Blog, making such a gross misstatement and one that so directly conflicts with the Democratic Platform. Failure to distinguish between major Israeli cities like Efrat and fanatical religious outposts in the West Bank is shameful.
The larger issue is that if Meteor Blades is going to comment substantively, he should not be the arbitrator of what is allowed. That is like the fox watching the hen house. Furthermore, why is it that Meteor Blades gets to be the sole voice on what is and is not anti-semitism? Why can he continue to call for more and more support for Deniac's claim that TomJ is an anti-semite based upon some very dubious links in his profile while at the same time attacking Keith Moon for posting diaries intended to balance the All Gaza All The Time Crowd?
Finally, what I want to know is does Meteor Blades "represent" Daily Kos when he says those things. Are his views the ones we want the Democratic Party to think Daily Kos stands for? If so, count me out.
The problem that I see is that Meteor Blades comes to the issue with his own viewpoints. Thus, when a diarist such as Karmafish accuses a poster supporting Hamas of supporting terrorism, Meteor Blades warns KarmaFish instead of the people supporting Hamas.
Meteor Blades, the Arbitrator of what is and is not allowed to be said, thinks Comparisons of Zionism and Nazism are fair, just not at Daily Kos.:
* [new] Comparisons of Zionism with Naziism ... (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:blueness
...are forbidden. While this might be a perfectly reasonable discussion to have in a more nuanced environment, say at a political journal or face to face among scholars, the I/P threads at Daily Kos do not qualify as such an environment and have a long history of disruptive behavior associated with such accusations. These are not productive, which is why we forbid them. Please cease and desist.
Some people would be better off not reading diaries they comment on, since they already have all the answers.
by Meteor Blades on Mon Aug 03, 2009 at 05:18:24 PM EDT
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
And here is another one of his gems:
I support the right of those Palestinians (and their offspring) who can prove a direct lineage that put them in what is now Israel prior to 1948, or who have been forced out since then.
I do not support the "return" of Palestinians whose families do not originate from what is now Israel.
That may not be Solomonic, but it is fair, and it does not mean an end to the Jewish state. [My emphasis not in the original]
Addendum: I also support the rights of Jews expelled from Arab countries to be considered refugees, with all that status implies.
The comment I really wanted to focus on, I can't find after 30 minutes of looking. If anyone can find it and post it in the comments, I would appreciate it. It is the comment where Meteor Blades states that "All Settlements Are Illegal." This was the comment that first inspired me to create this blog. A person who "represents" Daily Kos, A Democratic Blog, making such a gross misstatement and one that so directly conflicts with the Democratic Platform. Failure to distinguish between major Israeli cities like Efrat and fanatical religious outposts in the West Bank is shameful.
The larger issue is that if Meteor Blades is going to comment substantively, he should not be the arbitrator of what is allowed. That is like the fox watching the hen house. Furthermore, why is it that Meteor Blades gets to be the sole voice on what is and is not anti-semitism? Why can he continue to call for more and more support for Deniac's claim that TomJ is an anti-semite based upon some very dubious links in his profile while at the same time attacking Keith Moon for posting diaries intended to balance the All Gaza All The Time Crowd?
Finally, what I want to know is does Meteor Blades "represent" Daily Kos when he says those things. Are his views the ones we want the Democratic Party to think Daily Kos stands for? If so, count me out.
Wednesday, August 5, 2009
Unbelievable Claim On Iran
Thanks to Floyd for bringing this diary to my attention. 14 people have so far recommended this article about how the "Israel Lobby" has one of its top priorities blocking Iran's gas imports as a sanction for their nuclear weapons program.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/5/762235/-Mr.-Mousavis-Gas-Embargo-on-Iran
Aside from blaming Israel and the "Israel Lobby" for what is going on in Iran, the diaries makes the amazing claim that:
Last I checked, pretty much the entire rational world didn't want Iran to enrich uranium, it is little to do with Israel. This is just pure non-sense. I an genuinely shocked that this type of crap would get recced.
Thus far, there has been no response to Joe Johnson's claim:
unbelievable.
Regards,
DKW
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/5/762235/-Mr.-Mousavis-Gas-Embargo-on-Iran
Aside from blaming Israel and the "Israel Lobby" for what is going on in Iran, the diaries makes the amazing claim that:
Four: An embargo is an act of war. If we're going to declare war on Iran because Israel doesn't want Iran to enrich uranium, let's be honest about it.
Last I checked, pretty much the entire rational world didn't want Iran to enrich uranium, it is little to do with Israel. This is just pure non-sense. I an genuinely shocked that this type of crap would get recced.
Thus far, there has been no response to Joe Johnson's claim:
What is really happening is that Israel does not like the sensible talk out of Washington about the settlements. Israel is insisting on the traditional stupid talk of the past 8 years; "do it our way or else". The Israelis are worried that their puppets in Washington may have slipped their strings. This type of talk on Iran reassures them.
unbelievable.
Regards,
DKW
Looking For Help
I am a regular contributor at Daily Kos, but I have a full time job as well as a family, so a lot goes on that I miss. If you see something that you think is outside the Democratic mainstream over there, shoot me an e-mail. Use discretion. I am looking for things like Apartheid, Hamas is not a terrorist org, Boycott Israel, Jewish Lobby, AIPAC is the devil sort of stuff. Email me the link plus the text of the offending comment. Dailykoswatch@gmail.com
Thanks,
DKW
Thanks,
DKW
Tuesday, August 4, 2009
Israel Just Called Apartheid
Let's see how many uprates this diary receives (6 and counting in only 13 minutes):
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/4/760956/-This-is-what-Apartheid-Looks-Like.-The-failure-of-Obamas-Constructive-Engagement.
Some highlights from the article:
FYI - This is the same poster who got 63 uprates for his article about how Israel "Kidnapped" the members of the boat (i.e. Cynthia McKinney who ran AGAINST Barrack Obama) that tried to run the Israeli blockade of Gaza.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/30/748334/-Piracy-on-the-Mediterranean.-Israel-Kidnaps-Activists.
Update: The latest article is up to 15 uprates. My guess is it will get around 50.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/4/760956/-This-is-what-Apartheid-Looks-Like.-The-failure-of-Obamas-Constructive-Engagement.
Some highlights from the article:
We need change we can believe in. We need actions. The US can decide if it wants
to continue to lavish military aid on a nation that has brazenly rejected
international law and continues to dispossess the Palestinian people.
Right out of their homes. In broad daylight.Time for Sanctions Mr. Obama. Israel said No. They said No to stopping the settlement expansions, they said No to stopping the evictions and demolitions of Palestinian homes... and showed this past weekend they meant business. Palestinians cannot live in Press Releases. Human Rights are not bargaining chips in negotiations.
If the Obama administration does not act, if it continues to fund the Israeli regime without even the slightest hint of restrictions, even while Israel violates international law with impunity, then it is complicit in its crimes. It will not be mere "concerned" observers, but enablers of ethnic cleansing and other crimes against humanity.
Tell Obama you mean want this "constructive engagement" to end. It's time for serious action against the settlements and evictions. Time to move beyond lipservice, to nonviolent action for justice.
FYI - This is the same poster who got 63 uprates for his article about how Israel "Kidnapped" the members of the boat (i.e. Cynthia McKinney who ran AGAINST Barrack Obama) that tried to run the Israeli blockade of Gaza.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/30/748334/-Piracy-on-the-Mediterranean.-Israel-Kidnaps-Activists.
Update: The latest article is up to 15 uprates. My guess is it will get around 50.
Sunday Comment
received no negative attention and two people thought enough of it to give it "approval"
Regards,
DKW
and Israel will be held accountable for its deplorable actions. Not soon enough to help families like the ones in this story thrown on the street so heartlessly. But in due course - as events relentlessly keep marching on..
Even as we stand here, pointing an accusing finger at the merciless machine that is what's left of Israel's soul, another few 1000 israelis register their own personal protest by applying for a visa out of the country. By all accounts over 750 K Israeli citizens reside abroad already and more are leaving every day. Most of them young - between 25 and 40 in age. Most will never return as they find life outside the suffocating, claustrophobic cauldron of israel's dream-tuned-to-nightmare all too appealing. Yes, hard economic times caused a few to return but the net number of those making reverse aliyah continues to increase. Why are they leaving? each and every person or family has a different personal story but by and large they vote with their feet to leave a place that's become synonymous with deep corruption, government incompetence, absence of civility and a deepening rate of encroachment by fundamental and militant sects of judaism.
And that is where Israel will pay the price - even as they wag fingers at palestinians, demanding to be declared "Jewish", their understanding and practice of judaism descends to unrecognizable forms. Nowhere in the world is it worse being a jew than in Israel - on any level.
Will any of this help palestinians? not yet. In the meantime, it behooves those who believe in values we identify with civilized behavior to each do our little share. Joining the bds campaign is a great start for those who know not what else they can do
Regards,
DKW
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