Back during World War II a young Polish lawyer of Jewish Extraction by the name of Raphael Lemkin came to the United States, took a position at Duke University and coined a term that signified:
a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.
* SteveP's diary :: ::
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Under such a definition, you could certainly disagree with such a statement, but it wouldn't be particularly controversial to assert that Israel's actions vis-a-vis the Palestinians would meet such a definition. You would violently disagree perhaps, but you wouldn't hide rate it. For that matter, you might also apply it to the aspirations of some Arab and Palestinian terror organizations.
But the pickle (and a large radioactive pickle too) comes when we add in the first couple of sentences of the quote I snipped above:
"Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.
That word - Genocide.
Read it. The entire thing is a plea to be able to call Israel genocidal without being HRed. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/7/763354/-Genocide,-I-P,-Language-and-Kosa-Meta-Rant-
This is off topic, but I awaken this morning to discover that among the 14 preconditions that Fatah is demanding before talks is the ceding of Jerusalem, both east and west, to Palestinian control.
ReplyDeleteJPost headline:
FATAH: ALL OF JERUSALEM MUST BE RETURNED BEFORE NEGOTIATIONS.
So, Netanyahu called for talks without preconditions.
Obama demanded the precondition of "settlement freeze."
And now Fatah is demanding 14 preconditions, including the ceding of Jerusalem in its entirety before they will be willing to sit down.
Ridiculous, no?
And, yet, our "friends" on the left will still blame Israel.
Genocide as defined by "crime of genocide"
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"...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such:
a. killing members of the group;
b. causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c. deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e. forcibly tranferring children of the group to another group.
Israel meets NONE of the criteria. However, its enemies, however, DO commit all of those acts with COMPLETE INTENT to destroy Israel, the Jews as both a religious group (thru forced conversions or death) AND a national group (Israel) and as an ethnic group (killing Jews around the world as Hamas, Hezbollah, PIJ, Ahmadinejad would have)
I suggest someone write a diary about how the Arabs have been the ones guilty of genocide against the Jews.
Oh yes, genocide also counts as:
ReplyDeletea. genocide
b. conspiracy to commit genocide
c. direct and public incitement to genocide
d. attempt to commit genocide
e. complicity in genocide
Israel's enemies meet all the criteria, thru propaganda, direct calls, their wars, and their help of Hitler with Al Husseini, Nasser giving home to Nazis, etc.
I hope everyone checked out Assaf's new diary so they can refute the message he tries to send. He tries to make Israel out to be "non-western" because 46%-42% see homosexuality as "perverted."
ReplyDeleteBut what he leaves out is that other "western" countries such as the US have similar views, go to www.gallup.com/poll/108155/American-Evenly-Divided-Morality-Homosexuality.aspx and you will see this. Also, everyone please refute Palestinian Professor's attempt to paint the ummah more tolerant of homosexuality, which is a lie, as we know.
Israel is similar to the US, not the other Arab/Muslim countries where its illegal, gets you arrested, or killed. most of the Muslim countries fall into one of these categories. I'm sick of how these people try to demonize Israel on issues liberals care about yet whitewash the Islamic world. Yes there was this terribly incident, but sadly, this happens in Muslim countries far more, and yes incidents like this happen in the US. But they also happen in Europe, which to these ultra-leftists, is "paradise," when in reality the grass is NOT greener on the "other side," especially where there is only sand.
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ReplyDeleteAnti-Palestine? Give me a break.
ReplyDeleteThere is barely anti-Palestine sentiment on DailyKos. But plenty of antisemitism and anti-Israel bullshit populates the I/P discussion.
If you want the anti-Palestine site, there's one being set up by Ismail the Anti-Palestine Palestinian. Should be loads of fun.
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ReplyDeleteyes anonymous. So apartheid Arab-Israelis sit in parliament with right to vote for anyone, have been ministers in government, go to the same universities as Jews, get government health care, sit on the same benches legally, yes, apartheid.
ReplyDeleteYes, the laws of the Jewish state privilege Jews over non-Jews. Legal discrimination based on ethnicity. You're aware of this, no?
ReplyDeleteAnd you don't even mention all those dirty Arabs Israel occupies--stateless people, no passports, herded through checkpoints by an occupation army, their movement restricted by walls and guns.
Apartheid indeed!
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI think that if you would like to have a conversation with us, you can.
But it needs to be an actual conversation.
This is a new blog with a handful of participants. From what I understand we are mainly liberal supporters of Israel, probably mostly Jews, who are concerned about the degree of hatred expressed toward the Jewish state on the largest Dem blog in existence.
I will talk with you, if you will talk with me.
But it must be without hostility.
It must be with peace.
anonymous, in Israel, there is no legal privilege of Jews above non-Jews. In fact, there is affirmative action there for God's sake. is there discrimination against non-Jews in practice? Of course. But in what country in the world is there NOT discrimination against minority ethnic groups? name me one. Is the US an "apartheid state" because blacks get the shaft in the legal system? Also, where are you complaining about the Arab Republic of Egypt, the Syrian Arab Republic, but you whine about the Jewish state.
ReplyDeleteWhy do Palestinians not get the same rights as Israelis? because they're not citizens of Israel nor have they wanted to be. Why are those Palestinians stateless? because they initiated the war on the Jews in 1947 after partition, and the states they migrated to chose not to give them citizenship and keep them in tents.
Admin, why are you letting this "anonymous" guy go on? Please delete his posts.
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ReplyDeleteI feel so special.
ReplyDeleteYou might check out the statement where I say that there are Arab and Palestinian groups that would fall under such definitions as well at least aspirationally.
Krissy - the rights of occupied people are the rights of occupied people whether they want to be citizens or not. Citizens of Israel who are Arabic are subject to discrimination under the laws if you believe separate but equal (or nearly equal) is inherently unequal.
"Because they initiated the war on...." Even suppoing this were generally true, then we visit the sins of the fathers (and mothers) on the sons (and daughters)? That was 62 years ago, most Palestinians in the Occupied Territories were born after that, but they have no rights because of the actions of those in 1947? That seems fundamentally unfair, does it not?
The States they migrated to are under no obligation to grant citizenship to refugees, it is the displacer that has such responsibility both legally and morally.
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ReplyDeleteSteveP is funny:
ReplyDelete"The State they migrated to are under no obligation to grant citizenship to refugees..."
That's quite true, isn't it?
But then, I am afraid, they will remain refugees.
Fatah is not interested in negotiations, so I do not see how there can be a Palestinian state.
Israel, of course, is not going to dissolve itself by allowing the so-called "right of return." Thus, they will not become Israeli citizens.
Therefore, unfortunately, the status quo will remain and people like Steve will continue to blame Israel.
But, in that case, the suffering and poverty of the Palestinian people will continue on into the future.
What stupidity this all is.
btw, DKW, I very much hope that you have the ability in this format to ban... because you are going to need to, clearly.
Don't Matter: - hmm...interesting"
ReplyDeleteFloyd: They could be made citizens in their own state maybe?
Fatah: the five points they are talking about in the Congress actually emphasize negotiations (and do not have the pre-conditions that, for instance, Likud has in their party papers as regards Jerusalem).
Israel shouldn't dissolve itself, but while it is giving out property in East Jerusalem to recent emigrees from NY, they ought be thinking of how the Palestinian diaspora can return to their land - maybe the way suggested in the resolutions that give Israel legal status?
I blame all sides on this - everyone is pissing in teir own water.
I'm interested in knowing why the post title says "Daily Kos Believes Israel Committs Genocide".
ReplyDeleteIs that the official position of Daily Kos? very interesting if that is true.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI'm interested in knowing why the post title says "Daily Kos Believes Israel Committs Genocide".
Is that the official position of Daily Kos? very interesting if that is true.
It must be - Kos himself generates all the pixels - that's why Bill-O admits that all those posts about killing Hillary and Obama are his official position...oops.
What's interesting is that in fact I say Israel isn't guilty of genocide...but hey, whatever floats everyone's boat.
Seems like some don't like debate here.
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ReplyDeleteY'know, Steve, I do not know that we are here to debate anything.
ReplyDeleteWe are here, as people who care about Israel, to discuss the anti-Israel hate-fest that is dKos I-P.
As people who care about Israel, we resent it.
From our perspective, if I may say so, people like you are exactly the problem because you turn I-P into a cartoon. You frame the story as one between Good Palestinians versus Evil Jews. You may not use that exact terminology, but it doesn't matter because that is what it amounts to.
The story is complex, but people like you insist on always and forever blaming only one side. You do a disservice to history, and you fan flames of hatred and anti-Semitism, because you are incapable of understanding that the Palestinians and the Arab governments also hold responsibility for how things ultimately went down.
But for you, the only people to blame are the Jews in the ME.
This is why your voice is toxic.
And this is precisely why this blog is necessary.
Floyd: you clearly have not read what I have written. I have said that Hamas has committed Terrorism. I have said that Fatah is not useful. I haven't particularly said, but would very much say that the various Arab neighbours of Israel have pursued nakedly illegal and anti-Semitic policies towards Israel.
ReplyDeleteAnd I eschew the kind of Manichean nonsense that, for instance, "doesn't matter" just said. It i indeed complex, but by denying the complexity on both sides you are falling into the same traps that the right in te Israeli polity has - wheren all Palestinians are "they" and that "they" is then composed solely of suicide bombers and rocketers.
Both sides have to realize that there are Israelis mand Palestinians across the spectrum from Teroirsts to people devoted to fining a solution that doesn't involve rockest or white phosphorus.
Be denying that, it is you who are trying to make it two-dimensional. The majority of Palestinians, like the majority of Israeli's want peace and security. It will never happen while there is an occupation, where there is a blockade. That's reality, the cold hard truth. So how does one work towards that peace and security?
Through justice.
er...that would be:
ReplyDeleteBoth sides have to realize that there are Israelis and Palestinians across the spectrum from Terrorists to people devoted to fining a solution that doesn't involve rockets or white phosphorus.
Floyd,
ReplyDeleteVoices are toxic? I don't understand.
Yes.
ReplyDeleteSome voices are toxic.
Words can be toxic.
And Daily Kos I-P is almost entirely toxic.
If you've heard my singing, you would know
ReplyDeleteFloyd/Karmafish: Cry me a river!!!! Boohoooo!!! Wittle Iswael is being spit upon!!! Boooohooooo!!!! The Libwals don't like Iswael! Booooooooohoooooo
ReplyDeleteWill someone ban/delete the anti-Israel trolls here?
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ReplyDeleteOh, and DKW, if you want to give me access to the front page, I could help you out with updates.
ReplyDeleteSo could I ;-)
ReplyDeleteYeah, if you really had guts, you'd use your own real name, like i do. if you had stones in your brain, as everyone knows i do.
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ReplyDeleteHey DKW,
ReplyDeletewe already have people trying to fuck with this website. I normally use Floyd as my moniker, but the comment directly above this one was not made by me.
FYI
Anonymous posters are frigging useless..to say nothing of whomever is purposely posting under other people's names.
ReplyDeleteIt is time we get Alan Dershowitz on the phone. He is a sure cure for the toxicity of the Israel haters!
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ReplyDeleteDude, stop it. It's not only not funny, but it is a breach of the basic net etiquette to impersonate other people use other people's handles...I realize you think these people are second graders - it's not a reason to act like one yourself.
ReplyDeleteThe real Floyd here.
ReplyDeleteIt's not the least bit surprising that we have someone from dKos trolling here.
We are Jewish people and supporters of Israel concerned about anti-Israel bias on dKos. The fact that this person is with us demonstrates just why this site is needed.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteHahahaha, oh yeah, opposing Israel's occupation makes one an anti-semite.
ReplyDeleteThat's the oldest trick in the book--everyone who disagrees with you simply MUST be an anti-semite.
But it's basically how Israel gets away with its brutality: shout down anyone who criticizes Israel with charges of anti-semitism and "Israel-hate".
Guess what? People aren't buying that shit anymore. That's why you all are scared and had to make this stupid ass site.
There is a method to my madness. I am not opposed to debate, but I am not going to allow this to devolve into what happens on Daily Kos. I credit SteveP for coming here to disucss the topic. I would encourage people to discuss it professionally. I would like nothing more for this site to evolve into a hyperbole free discussion of the Middle East, without the recriminations.
ReplyDeleteI deleted comments based on a few factors. One, it is my personal blog and I can do what I want. Two, I want the comments to be befitting of what I consider reasonable conversation. Three, I left some comments because I think they demonstrated the problem at DailyKos and having the comments here simply makes my job easier. Four, everyone has to think about what they say and what it's impact will be. Talking about support for "Islamic terrorists" is typically not going to get a good response.
I know it is just the web, but we should all try to think before we write.
Regards,
DKW