The problem that I see is that Meteor Blades comes to the issue with his own viewpoints. Thus, when a diarist such as Karmafish accuses a poster supporting Hamas of supporting terrorism, Meteor Blades warns KarmaFish instead of the people supporting Hamas.
Meteor Blades, the Arbitrator of what is and is not allowed to be said, thinks Comparisons of Zionism and Nazism are fair, just not at Daily Kos.:
* [new] Comparisons of Zionism with Naziism ... (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:blueness
...are forbidden. While this might be a perfectly reasonable discussion to have in a more nuanced environment, say at a political journal or face to face among scholars, the I/P threads at Daily Kos do not qualify as such an environment and have a long history of disruptive behavior associated with such accusations. These are not productive, which is why we forbid them. Please cease and desist.
Some people would be better off not reading diaries they comment on, since they already have all the answers.
by Meteor Blades on Mon Aug 03, 2009 at 05:18:24 PM EDT
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
And here is another one of his gems:
I support the right of those Palestinians (and their offspring) who can prove a direct lineage that put them in what is now Israel prior to 1948, or who have been forced out since then.
I do not support the "return" of Palestinians whose families do not originate from what is now Israel.
That may not be Solomonic, but it is fair, and it does not mean an end to the Jewish state. [My emphasis not in the original]
Addendum: I also support the rights of Jews expelled from Arab countries to be considered refugees, with all that status implies.
The comment I really wanted to focus on, I can't find after 30 minutes of looking. If anyone can find it and post it in the comments, I would appreciate it. It is the comment where Meteor Blades states that "All Settlements Are Illegal." This was the comment that first inspired me to create this blog. A person who "represents" Daily Kos, A Democratic Blog, making such a gross misstatement and one that so directly conflicts with the Democratic Platform. Failure to distinguish between major Israeli cities like Efrat and fanatical religious outposts in the West Bank is shameful.
The larger issue is that if Meteor Blades is going to comment substantively, he should not be the arbitrator of what is allowed. That is like the fox watching the hen house. Furthermore, why is it that Meteor Blades gets to be the sole voice on what is and is not anti-semitism? Why can he continue to call for more and more support for Deniac's claim that TomJ is an anti-semite based upon some very dubious links in his profile while at the same time attacking Keith Moon for posting diaries intended to balance the All Gaza All The Time Crowd?
Finally, what I want to know is does Meteor Blades "represent" Daily Kos when he says those things. Are his views the ones we want the Democratic Party to think Daily Kos stands for? If so, count me out.
I think Meteor Blades will do a good job once he gets to know all the players. At least I hope so.
ReplyDeleteIs Meteor kidding? What decent "scholars" or "political journals" compare Nazism to Zionism? noam chomsky? Norman Finkelstein, who has been fired from 6 universities and is loved by Holocaust deniers? Also, when did Meteor call for support for deaniac's pointing out Tom J's anti-semitic stopaipac.org site?
ReplyDeleteHere's a juicy tid-bit.
ReplyDeleteSomeone named plumb dad is justifying rocket attacks against innocent Israeli civilians in Keith Moon's latest effort.
FYI.
Thankfully he's getting spanked.
That, at least, is hopeful, eh?
Oh, and btw, hello to AmbroseBurnside.
Are you suspended or banned?
Plumb Dad could simply be Carl Nyberg again, people on Kos should explore the possibility.
ReplyDeleteI hope Ambrose wasn't banned. Also, I cannot believe Deaniac was. He said so much truth to power they just couldn't handle it anymore.
It has become the Daily Orwell.
I got a seven day ban.
ReplyDeleteI do hope MB sticks to the idea that DailyKos isn't to be ruled by the foreign policy kooks, rather it's supposed to welcome the Democratic base as a whole.
Thanks folks. Keep 'em coming. Maybe I can even figure out a way to let some of you write your own front page posts. Not that blog smart, i'm not.
ReplyDeleteRegards,
DKW
Can I write here too ?
ReplyDeletePlease Mr Fish yer ma hero
One of the questions that I have for people here concerns the settlements.
ReplyDeleteI don't think many of us on the left - liberal - progressive, whateverthefuck, side of the equation tend to favor either the settlers or the settlements.
However, it does very strongly seem to me that Barack has screwed up by insisting upon a "settlement freeze" as a precondition for talks.
This puts Netanyahu in an untenable position. Many in Likud are already angry with him for reversing himself on the two-state solution; a position, of course, that he has been given absolutely no credit for among western liberals... who also usually favor the two-state solution.
But can he freeze "natural growth" and survive within his own party or is it Barack's point to destroy Bibi's governing coalition?
I do not know.
Nonetheless, whatever Barack is attempting to do, he is rallying Israelis around Netanyahu and hurting himself among the Jewish-Israeli public. I think this is foolish.
Obama seems to be endeavoring to gain favor with the Arab states by, in some small measure, distancing himself from Israel. At the same time the Jewish-Israelis are looking for him to pressure the Arab players to the table, but he is not doing so.
Thus he pressures Israel and only Israel.
I do not believe this is a smart move and there is no question that Abbas and other Arab leaders, as well as their western anti-Zionist / anti-Israel supporters, are using "settlement freeze" as an excuse to avoid the table and blaming it on Israel.
I therefore question if they really want peace.
I question if Barack is not the worst president for Israel.
ReplyDeleteHe is taking the Arabs side. He wants to give Israel back to the Arabs.
They'd fucking crucify you on dKos for saying that Flashy guy.
ReplyDeleteI do not know that I agree... not yet.
But, yeah, I loves the fishes.
Tasty and delicious, they are.
:O)
btw, wtf have you done with Volleyboy?
What he wants is rapprochement with the Not Nice to Israel Caucus.
I'm a tad skeptical.
Obama is the reason now that Fatah is able to have the time to make terrorism re-affirmed in their platform not to mention handed Abbas the fate of this situation on a silver platter. He is following the false myth of "linkage," that Israel is what is wrong in the Middle East and solve that, everything is better. Even Dennis Ross' new book "Myths, Illuisions, and Peace" completely debunks that. Linkage has failed time and again from the time of Eisenhower to today.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I think Volleyboy says the things he says to appease everyone on Daily Kos. He just likes being a TU and toeing the line, so as not to offend anyone.
The problem is with the definition of the word "settlements." There is a tremendous difference between Efrat and some outpost in the West Bank.
ReplyDeleteRegards,
DKW
DKW we will not get anywhere unless we fight MB. Banning deaniac20c has to be fought.
ReplyDeleteFlash has it right. Meteor did not warn dean whatsoever that he even risked being banned. Normally, you get the orange thing at the top of the screen. But this time he didn't get it. I've talked to him. And he emailed him why, no answer. And the guy even wants a right of return. We know his true game. Was he banned because he called out heathlander's charge of "jewish supremacism?" Its not his fault David Duke's book turns up first in a google search.
ReplyDeleteI hope everyone is spreading this blog like the gospel.
Deaniac was often over the top in his rhetoric. His points were often valid, sometimes not, but, in my opinion, like many people too prone to hyperbole. Nonetheless, I find it surprising that they would so easily terminate a TU.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that MB is a bad person, I just don't think he is the right person, or an impartial person, to be making these decisions.
How this blog is spread, is up to all of us. Just tell people you know who have similar views.
Regards,
DKW
How many anti-Israel posters have been warned or suspended or banned since MB took charge? Do yer sums. Also, dean was a TU.
ReplyDeleteYou can call Israel Apartheid and pro-Israel Jews racists but you can't call Hamas lovers on their terrorism support. Is swear to God I want to write a diary on the Jewish state and how great its achievements are. MB has to go, he can be a regular member but not a moderator. You can't be a moderator if yo want to distroy Israel by letting Arabs flood it with their right of return.
Regards
Flash the Yid
Flash, I suggest you either do that, or you write a diary which smashes the apartheid myth to pieces. But attack it from all angles. It can be done. If the Jews are white South Africans, why do non-Jews vote, sit in the same parliament, get the same health care, live anywhere as long as it isn't the JNF (and I don't even know how true the rumours are about that tho they do own very LITTLE land), they can even oppose Zionism, go to the same universities.
ReplyDeleteThe problem lies in their ideas about the birth of Israel. They treat it as "ethnic cleansing." But they fail to ever complain about the tons of other ethnic cleansings that have happened in the world, even in left-wing "anti-imperialist" contexts. And they also seem to not get it was done because a. the arabs told them to leave and come back when the Jews were gone, and b. yes the Jews were attacked, and yes in war sometimes portions enemy populations are expelled, and many of them absolutely did fight against the Jews.
Honestly was anyone complaining at all when Poland during the end of WWII, like Israel, had an enemy population in land which prevented it from having defensible border (East Prussia) and some had to leave, and none were ever given a right of return. These idiots on the anti-I called Israel South Africa and the refugee camps in OTHER actual states (not real bantustans) bantustans! It makes no sense! The US should be sanctioned as an apartheid state because we ethnically cleansed Indians who were once the majority and now live in reservations, or "bantustans" and their casinos are "colonialism." Its a world view problem. These anti-I people probably would have been rooting for the USSR in the Cold War, or would have been scared getting into WWII would be imperialism on our part. Where are these people complaining about how Kuwait ethnically cleansed 400000 Palestinians after Arafat supported Saddam?
I think the hate of Israel is either naive but well intentioned people, or anti-American people and anti-semites. But at least, with new diaries we could at least challenge the ideologues, get the right views out there, and perhaps more new posters once afraid to post pro-I won't be intimidated anymore. The problem clearly isn't just the WB/G. You actually have people who buy into the Communist Soviet propaganda "Zionism is racism."
anonymous, you also forgot the Israelis also clearly weren't motivated by race or else there'd be no Arabs there! Plus, Israel initially was gonna be binational, until the Arabs launched war first! Oh yea, I'm using the term "the Arabs," so I'm now a racist! But you hit the nail on the head on many things!
ReplyDeletethe analogy just makes no sense in anyway whatsoever. The same "anti-imperialists" who whine about Israel were imperialists themselves: they wanted a Greater Syria, and they aligned originally with the Soviet Empire.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Hamas said Jews could live as dhimmis for not being Muslims, even if they were the majority, and this way would be the only acceptable way for Jews to live in the Land of Israel. Hamas therefore supports apartheid.
There needs to be a diary about it. But people need to accept Israel is already here. The problem is some don't, and these are usually the same people who use the analogy, because they know that otherwise, the analogy inside Israel's borders is completely indisputably false. But with the WB/G, they again use the race card, ignoring that Israel is allowed some territory and not withdraw from "all territories," things are done for security, not race, and don't intend permanent occupation.
Also, the occupation is almost gone in the WB anyway. The PA controls most of it. But terrorism has gone up since Oslo. And after 2005. So the idea occupation is the problem is a lie.
The way that I've broken it down, we're dealing with 5 overlapping groups or, more accurately, trends.
ReplyDelete1) Pro-Palestinian advocates (like unspeakable)
2) human rights advocates (like buhdydharma)
3) anti-Zionists (like Jon)
4) Israel-Haters (like Lefty Coaster)
5) anti-Semites (like mattes, who was banned quite awhile ago)
The problem is that far too often the first two "groups" give a pass to the other three or even consider their contributions helpful.
Huge mistake.
Floyd, I think you forgot a category which would easily fit, tho it probably would encompass numerous ones you have: Anti-Americans. No matter what good America does, these people root either for the other superpower, or any movement opposed to the West, like those who think Islamism is acceptable. The same people who would probably have been rooting for the USSR in the Cold War. Or be scared for America to enter WWII for fear of "US 'imperialism.'"
ReplyDeleteMany of those groups and posters do overlap, Floyd. I think #3's like Jon are also 4s and absolutely 5s. Lefty Coaster is also the last three groups, Joe Jonson is absolutely an anti-semite, anti-zionist, and israel hater, and elishastephens. Tho he clearly fits into the new cateogy I listed above, as he has Castro and Marx on his page.
Basically, we have far left loons who are even an embarassment to mainstream liberals everywhere. These people are usually ones who support Chavez, Morales.
SteveP's latest I/P diary is really off the fucking wall. He uses a definition of "genocide" that isn't even legal.
ReplyDeleteAnti-Americans aside, although I am willing to entertain that thought because it's definetely prevalent on the European left, I think that I want to stress the idea that the first two groups, pro-Palestinian advocates and human rights advocates, are not the problem.
ReplyDeleteIt's important to make these distinctions.
The problem that we have, imo, is not unspeakable or buhdydharma.
It's the people that spit hatred at Israel.
It's the people that always, and forever, blame Israel for everything I-P.
It's the people who suggest that Israel likes to kill children.
It's the people who turn the history of Israel / Palestine into a self-righteous, simplistic, Manichean narrative of Good versus Evil.
I suppose it's emotionally gratifying, but it does not come near to the truth.
I'm not worried at all about Meteor Blades taking on the role of moderating I/P discussions. I'm also not worried about him participating. I think he's as capable as anyone of moderating rather impartially, and while he may disagree with some of us on issues, he will do so with respect and having done his research. I can point to one very positive development already -- the zero tolerance for Nazi comparisons. Those were routine before he started moderating, and now they are almost all gone. Give him a chance to do his job. It's gotta be a pretty thankless one.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDelete